Talk:Elon Musk

Founder of Tesla

Elon Musk was one of the founders of Tesla, and that should be mentioned in the article, not that he was just an "early investor". Elon Musk has repeatedly claimed to have come up with the name "Tesla Motors", and the concept. He suggested it to Eberhard as they were both mildly involved(test driving and such) in another EV project called T-Zero. They did not own the rights to the name "Tesla Motors", since a guy called Brad Siewert had already registered it for his own company. While Elon officially didn't join the company before 6 months after Eberhard and Tarpenning had incorporated it, at the time the company was just a shell corp with no employees, no offices, no funding, no IP, no designs, no prototype, just this general idea of commercializing the T-Zero. First thing Elon Musk did after officially joining Tesla was to buy the rights to the name from Brad Siewert. Elon Musk was introduced to the T-Zero car by JB Straubel, who later became Tesla's first Chief Technology Officer. After experiencing the T-Zero, Musk was inspired and wanted to commercialize it, and the AC Propulsion guys(who made the T-Zero) connected him with Eberhard and Tarpenning, as they had the same idea. In Eberhard's lawsuit against Tesla, he wanted to be recognized as one of only two founders of the company(alongside Marc Tarpenning), a claim that was rejected by the judge. The judge struck down Eberhard's claim, and this decision was based on the broader context of Tesla's founding and the contributions of others, including Musk, JB Straubel, and Ian Wright, who were also considered integral to the company's early development. Obviously Eberhard has his own version of events, that are not compatible with Elon Musk's version, and the truth might be somewhere in the middle, but at the end of the day, this was dealt with in court, the court rejected Eberhard's claims, and concluded that Elon Musk was integral to the founding of Tesla... so, it seems only right that Wikipedia accept that there were(legally recognized) 5 founders of Tesla, including Elon Musk. I have not made any changes to the article, but just wanted to put this forward here, so others can evaluate whether to do so. FindTheBalance (talk) 21:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Musk was not a founder of Tesla. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

That's Eberhards narrative. It's easy to find plenty of articles that say the opposite, that Elon Musk was the founder of Tesla.

Here is Elon's perspective:

https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-debunks-tesla-history-fake-news/

Elon Musk came up with the name:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-elon-musk-named-his-electric-car-tesla/

Elon Musk was one of the founders("Musk is also among the founders of Tesla,"):

https://www.reuters.com/article/tesla-suit-idUKN2131161020090921/

And again, the court ruled with Elon Musk, dismissed Eberhards claim that he and Tarpenning were the only founders. That should be the final word in this.

https://www.cnet.com/culture/teslas-musk-gloats-over-eberhard-ruling/

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-cofounder-eberhard-drops-his-lawsuit-against-tesla-musk-2009-8 FindTheBalance (talk) 01:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for sharing these good sources on Court ruling. Article needs to be updated to reflect this information. RogerYg (talk) 09:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The article body has relevant details, but its not reflected in the Lead yet.

A 2009 lawsuit settlement with Eberhard designated Musk as a Tesla co-founder, along with Tarpenning and two others.

https://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-motors-founders-now-there-are-five/

https://www.fastcompany.com/1367866/tesla-lawsuit-drama-ends-five-company-founders-emerge RogerYg (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Added in lead as a separate sentence. "He is considered a co-founder of Tesla motors" with references. Other editors may consider whether to include it along with early investor mention. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 10:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree with User talk:Muboshgu. Existing article reflects norms followed on other, closely related Wikipedia articles.

Please do not make sweeping changes to a L5 BLP article without allowing for numerous participants to weigh in. 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC) QRep2020 (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The article @Muboshgu linked to is simply repeating the rather misleading narrative that Eberhard promoted, but that claim was, as I pointed out, dismissed by Judge John L. Grandsaert after evaluating all the relevant facts. Even though Eberhard and Tarpenning *registered* the company a few months before Elon officially joined, it's fair to say that the company begun as they all got together, that's when they got funding, that's when they got the rights to the name, that's when they started developing plans, designs and eventually prototypes.

It seems to me that the most correct thing to do is to make a distinction between Eberhard and Tarpenning "incorporating" Tesla, and Eberhard, Tarpenning, Musk, Straubel and Wright being the founders of Tesla. FindTheBalance (talk) 21:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi FindTheBalance (talk), you seem very knowledgeable about this founder issue. Sadly knowledge alone is not valued on Wikipedia, we need good references / articles to back our knowledge.

I tried to briefly add that "Musk is one of the founders of Tesla" in the lead, with decent refernces, but it was taken down, as several editors seem to be against adding that to lead, even though its in the body.

I guess, we need more good references, and more TALK page support to get a fair lead on Tesla. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:09, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Also FindTheBalance (talk), probably you should start with Tesla wiki page first, and then try on this page. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 19:11, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I see that you are already working on Tesla page as well. Thanks. 20:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC) RogerYg (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Bio inaccuracies

According to Elon musk's biographer, this page has a lot of factual inaccuracies such as him never having received a degree.

See https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/the-truth-about-musk-from-his-biographer Sangaof (talk) 07:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, do they say he never received a degree? Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Crystal balling

Do we really need a list of posts he might get at some point in the future? Slatersteven (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

No, we don't. Not in an article as long as this already is. It's WP:UNDUE. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:43, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to Update Elon Musk’s Introduction to Include “Moderate-Right Political Influencer”

Elon Musk, known for his ventures in technology and business, has engaged in activities aligning with the moderate left and right leaning ideologies, despite his denials. Notable instances include:

• Endorsement of Germany’s AfD Party: Musk publicly supported the Alternative for Germany (AfD), a German political party. He stated that only the AfD can “save” Germany, aligning himself with their nationalist and anti-immigration stance.

• Platform Amplification of Right-leaning Figures: Under Musk’s leadership, X (formerly Twitter) has reinstated free-speech which was previously denied to right-leaning figures.

• Dissemination of Right-leaning Content: Musk has shared and engaged with content from right-leaning influencers, contributing to the normalization and dissemination of popular viewpoints which was previously vilified by mainstream media.

These actions demonstrate Musk’s alignment with the right-leaning ideologies, contradicting his public denials.

Proposed Change:

Current Introduction: “…is a businessman known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. …”

Proposed Introduction: “…is a businessman and political influencer known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc. …”

Rationale:

Wikipedia strives to provide a comprehensive and neutral perspective on public figures. Musk’s endorsements of extremist political parties, amplification of far-right figures, and dissemination of far-right content are significant aspects of his public persona. Gnarledge (talk) 07:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Using the term “Far right” is simply an attempt to cast a slur against him. He was a democrat for most of his life and Musk has often been described as libertarian, but also describes himself as "politically moderate". JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:53, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Note your wording: Musk was a Democrat and describes himself as politically moderate. However, recent actions speak louder than self-descriptions or past tendencies. His recent endorsements of far-right political parties and amplification of extremist content on X demonstrate a clear shift toward far-right ideologies. Even this Wikipedia page and others acknowledge his movement toward the right wing.

Furthermore, your immediate characterization of this proposal as an 'attempt to cast a slur' lacks substantiation. I have made a concerted effort to provide evidence supporting my claims, including Musk’s specific actions and their alignment with far-right ideologies. This is not polemic but a factual observation backed by reputable sources. Gnarledge (talk) 08:09, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

What he describes himself doesn't really matter per WP:PRIMARY.

However, to the original point – to begin with we need sources that use this wording before we can even start the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:31, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@JamieBrown2011

no, it is not only a slur because it is backed by political theory and documented evidence.

concrete wording can can be discussed.

maybe he is only a far right activist by German standards but not by American standards. Aberlin2 (talk) 15:28, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrown what is your reason to oppose? Aberlin2 (talk) 15:43, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose and I'm sorry but this just looks like it was directly copied and pasted out of Chat GPT. Big Thumpus (talk) 04:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Big Thumpus

This is a criticism of the other person's writing style and could also be due to the fact that the person is not a native English speaker, but what about the substantive reasons for your rejection? Aberlin2 (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Per FMSky's comment below: WP:COMMONSENSE Big Thumpus (talk) 00:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The most you could do is "politician", this applies even to the losers of WW2. Kenneth Kho (talk) 06:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Far right or just self-centered? I think his politics are like Trump's, whatever they need to be to get what he wants. No he is not far-right. 16:01, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I love this radical leftist propaganda. 2601:18C:8183:D410:E04D:DD95:1048:461E (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONSENSE --FMSky (talk) 00:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Gnarledge I support this change with some restrictions.

of course this article is in General unbalanced but there should be sources to back this claim in the article. And then the sentence could be something like: ... "is described as far-right activist by multiple..."

hth Aberlin2 (talk) 15:40, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

UTC)

Oppose JamieBrown2011 (talk) 06:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose he's a normie 90's liberal. "Far-right" means racial purity and goose-stepping military worship and answering the JQ and all that nonsense, none of which I've ever heard Musk espouse.103.85.36.186 (talk)

References

Why only ‘American’

Musk is introduced as ‘American’ - not South African-Canadian-American. He still has all three citizenships, and that order tracks his life. Why not include all three? Harsimaja (talk) 03:10, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

See FAQ. Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Elon Musk is an American

MOS:CONTEXTBIO provides the following.

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was such when they became notable."

It is clear that the context is American, and it is not complex. Remember, Wikipedia is not written for the editors who are experts about Elon Musk, Wikipedia is written for readers who look up about Elon Musk the first time. As such, our goal is to orient the readers, not to prevent edit wars between editors. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He seems to have Canadian, South African, and US nationality. Slatersteven (talk) 19:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is currently permanent resident of the US since 1995 which is the entire time he becomes notable. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Which is irrelevant as we are discussing his nationality, not his residency. Slatersteven (talk) 19:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

"The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable." There is only one - American. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is not primarily known for being an American, he is primarily known as a businessman. If you take that away, his being American would, not get him an article. I also more that many sources discus his status as a tri-national. Time for others to chip in. Slatersteven (talk) 19:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

He is primarily known as an American businessman, he is not that famous elsewhere. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

We've been through this question countless times on this talk page. MOS:CONTEXTBIO says "should usually", not "must", and the long-standing consensus is that his nationalities should not be included in the opening sentence, as set out in the FAQ above. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The point is that the FAQ is wrong in saying his nationalities is complex. As you noted, MOS:CONTEXTBIO simply says that he "should usually" be called American businessman. WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE applies. Kenneth Kho (talk) 19:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources seem to indicate that he gave up his Canadian and South African citizenships when he became an American (that would be normal too, its really rare for someone to keep a second citizenship and succesfully naturalize in the US), meaning that he was never a trinational and is currently only a national of one country (USA). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Please produce one that he has, anything else is OR. Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't find any that definitively state it one way or another, it seems that Musk is very private with his immigration history and what he says in public is apparently contradictory. I also would note that you're demanding sources but never actually provided any in the first place, what is your source that his status is tri-national? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

We have sources saying that at one time he was at least one of each, this is why we do not say it. We do not know. Slatersteven (talk) 11:09, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

So we do not have sources which discusses his tri-national status? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Make a list of the most notable South Africans in history and he would be in the top 5 among Mandela, Tutu, de Klerk, and Theron… Trillfendi (talk) 21:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Investment in Bihar India

Bihar 103.170.70.59 (talk) 11:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

new section:attacks on Wikimedia and DEI

since Elon Musk attacked Wikipedia multiple times but auto attacked other projects and business over DEI i think this topic should get a whole section and we got start by collecting sources like the following: https://nypost.com/2024/12/25/business/elon-musk-urges-supporters-not-to-donate-to-wikipedia-over-dei/ Aberlin2 (talk) 23:05, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Stuff like this has no business in the article and referring to it as an "attack" isn't NPOV. Big Thumpus (talk) 00:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Simp all you want, but what other term would you use for his constant attacks on Wikipedia?

https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1871443771424116954 99.189.97.98 (talk) 03:26, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

We don't have any right to interfere on how anyone or elon think of Wikipedia, everyone is free to talk however they want. This isn't for censoring and irrelevant stuffs won't be added to the articles. Thisasia  ^(Talk) 07:46, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oligarch

Adding the description of oligarch to Elon Musk would be the best way to describe both the power and influence he has in America. He has surpassed the qualifications and should thusly be categorized as one. NorthCentralKing (talk) 01:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:UNDUE Big Thumpus (talk) 02:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree accorsing to merriam- webster dictionary:

-oligarch: a member or supporter of oligarchy.

-oligarchy:

1

government by the few

2

a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes

also  : a group exercising such control

An oligarchy ruled the nation.

3

an organization under oligarchic control

Millionaires and billionaires can be considered as few in relation with the overall US population. A government entirely or with a majority of them, qualify Renzocht (talk) 03:00, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. It should be mentioned in the lead. Firecat93 (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

no work permit when working for zip2

His lack of work permit when founding zip2 is relevant given his views on open borders, the fact he didn't have US citizenship yet illegally worked for in the US on a student visa should be mentioned. It's mentioned later in the article but if the less mentions zip2, it should mention that his work for zip2 was illegal.

Alternatively the lede should strip any mention of the illegal work.

Sources: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/26/elon-musk-illegal-immigration https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2024/10/26/elon-musk-immigration-status/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2024/10/27/what-elon-musk-working-illegally-says-about-the-immigration-system/ 99.189.97.98 (talk) 03:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Dickipedia

Musk's proposal is still valid. So, he says, "Rename Wikipedia to Dickipedia, I'll donate 1bln$". It's a notable news and opinion about Wikipedia that shall be mentioned in his biography. 109.245.199.130 (talk) 07:45, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Musk political career

I wonder why Musk and Vivek political infobox was constantly removed or is DODGE not a govt agency but just an institution? Thisasia  ^(Talk) 07:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it's too soon? Firecat93 (talk) 08:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Mentioning Oligarch Characterization in Lead

Musk is the wealthiest person in the world. He has been described as an oligarch by prominent commentators, academics, and experts.

Influential Russian billionaires such as Roman Abramovich are described as oligarchs in the article lead, as there is consensus in RS that they are oligarchs. This is not true in the case of billionaires like Musk or Bezos.

Therefore, I propose including a variant of the following sentence in the lead:

Due to his considerable influence over American government policy, politics, media, industry, and public discourse, some academics and politicians have characterized Musk as an American oligarch. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]

Does this proposal have any support? Are there any suggested changes? (Some editors have argued that Musk should directly be referred to as an oligarch in the lead. I now agree with those that oppose doing so per WP:UNDUE.) Firecat93 (talk) 08:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Support I (clearly) support this course of action.

Here are just a few notable examples of prominent commentators, academics, and experts who have characterized Musk as an oligarch:

--> Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman, who characterized Musk as a "petulant oligarch" [8] [9]

--> Former United States Secretary of Labor Robert Reich has referred to Musk as an oligarch [10]

--> Senior fellow at Brookings and former Senior Director at the United States National Security Council during the Trump administration, Fiona Hill, has characterized Musk as an emerging oligarch [11] [12][13]

--> Ali Breland, staff writer at The Atlantic, has described Musk as "a new kind of oligarch" [14]

--> United States House Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.) has called Musk as an "unelected oligarch." [15]

--> United States Senator Bernie Sanders (I-V.T.) has described Musk as an oligarch [16][17]

Other examples in reliable sources of the term oligarch being associated with Musk, including by academics like Northwestern political scientist Jeffrey Winters, who specializes in the study of oligarchy: [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]

This characterization has received significant media coverage, especially in the past year.

(Also, here's a relevant editorial published by the Chicago Sun Times Editorial Board, which argues that Musk is using his "wealth and influence to bully Congress" and control "the levels of government." [[27]])

----

Finally, for reference, Oxford Languagues' Google dictionary defines an oligarch as, "a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence."

From the Business Oligarch Page: A business leader can be considered an oligarch if some of the following conditions are satisfied:

1. uses monopolistic tactics to dominate an industry;
2. possesses sufficient political power to promote their own interests, often exacerbating income inequality and corruption, particularly through policies that benefit the elite at the expense of the majority.
3. controls multiple businesses, which intensively coordinate their activities.

Firecat93 (talk) 08:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)